This seems to be a topic to understand (how non-specific letterboxes
will work). I think these have a place, though they are not mapped
specifically. And I think the interface, in general, which is
primarily maps, does not lend to them. I do hope the majority
of letterboxes will be mapped (at least a starting point) to ease
the use of the site for people who are just looking for a diversion.
Randy's idea (actually some time go) was to use a "?" symbol for
clues that are non-specific. See http://www.pclink.com/elf/oh.htm
for an example. In other words, there is no specific map locale.
So this is not a kind of letterbox where you can use the maps to
say, determine where is a good place to do letterboxing or to
determine once you are at a given location whether or not there
is a letterbox in the area. You have to study the clues and
determine by them where to go. On the example above I put the
"?" in the middle of the state of Ohio, but I think in the future
where this type of clue is used, if no region is given it would
make more sense to put it outside the map entirely (perhaps in the
margin).
As I said before I have no problem with clues like this. They're
creative, interesting, challenging. Some people will be looking
for exactly that type of letterbox. I think I would only be concerned
about the problem with kids and/or the "average" letterbox searcher
if most of our clues turned out to be this type. I really think that
is unlikely, so I'm not taking up the concern. The average person
would expect though to find a modicum of letterboxes, (esp. once we
have a better selection), in a given area, but this is not a real big
issue at present since no single area is really saturated. But I do
hope that plenty of letterboxes are on the horizon, and, as I will
explain, even for a single letterbox it is useful to know where to
start "at a glance". But, in general, given the lay of the land
and the means we use to find clues, seeing a bunch of "?" type
letterboxes in a given state would not help the average vacationer
say, or the average 5th grader who has just barely learned how to
use a map. The vacationer will look for the one that is near their
resort a reasonable drive from where they are staying. The 5th grader
will look for the one that is in the same town, even the same
neigborhood.
Dartmoor is unique in that its small and
neighborly. From there you can walk out your door, hit the trail
and head for Cranmere Pool or Well's Tor where you can expect to find
one (more likely several) letterboxes before you return home. Here,
my only find so far was on a chance visit to Portland. It turned
out to be very useful to know the starting point for the Rock Creek
Letterbox, which was at 185th and West Union. The letterbox was 1/3
mile away from there and it was not a "gimme". It was both fun and
challenging. But it was very useful to know where to start, esp. being
from out of town, not knowing any colloquialisms or the local folklore,
which may sometimes be used in place of the locale. If this had been
a "?" type box and if I was not meeting people I would probably not
have taken the time to do it. I needed an extra hour or so just to
drive out to it. This was well worth it to me because I got to meet
Mitch
and Thom at the Rock Creek Tavern before returning home. Unfortunatley,
they were out of the infamous Porter on the night I was there, so I
vowed that I will return someday and check in advance to make sure they
have the Porter! But it was great meeting Mitch and Thom. Thom didn't
have long to visit but Mitch and I jawed for hours and drank beer and
listened to the local blues artists. And we all exchanged stamp
imprints. So in spite of other factors it was fun and well worth it.
Well, these are just my thoughts on how these will work, who they may
be for and who they may not be for, and also to express my hope that we
will always have a good selection of "at-a-glance" mapped-type
letterboxes for average people.
But again, I like these boxes. I like Randy's ideas, Bonnie's and
everyone
who makes contributions. If there's a letterbox that can be found and
if
we can find a way to put it up on the site its a good thing IMO.
Dan
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Non-specific letterboxes
12 messages in this thread |
Started on 1999-04-06
[L-USA] Non-specific letterboxes
From: Daniel Servatius (elf@pclink.com) |
Date: 1999-04-06 20:06:18 UTC-05:00
[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: Graham Howard (ghh2@tutor.open.ac.uk) |
Date: 1999-04-07 16:56:56 UTC+01:00
Danl wrote about Dartmoor...
>Dartmoor is unique in that its small and
>neighborly.
The truth is Dan..The whole of Britain is like that....!
..but true ! We live in a tiny concentrated place here...
However..as a number of visitors from the US have discovered ..anyone can
walk a whole day passing tens of boxes and find..not a one...
The clues are everything...
Without a point of reference it's highly unlikely that a tyro will
discover a box even on Dartmoor
....................Dartmoor is covered in tourists in August and 99.9%
dont even know that Letterboxin exists
.....................and never find a box...!!!!
A well seasoned hunter...and of course anyone between 8 and 14 ... will
come upon a " Find by Chance "...but that's rather a special case ..and
over 12,000 in 365 squ mile helps a bit ! My "tame" 13 year old is very
useful in huntin out the plugged, and high and low placed boxes that
"sensible sedate boxers" wouldn't discover by chance
In the US the ? stamps you spoke of strike me as very unlikely to be
found..(that's my 2c worth )
Happy to be readin L-USA
Graham Howard
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>Dartmoor is unique in that its small and
>neighborly.
The truth is Dan..The whole of Britain is like that....!
However..as a number of visitors from the US have discovered ..anyone can
walk a whole day passing tens of boxes and find..not a one...
The clues are everything...
Without a point of reference it's highly unlikely that a tyro will
discover a box even on Dartmoor
....................Dartmoor is covered in tourists in August and 99.9%
dont even know that Letterboxin exists
.....................and never find a box...!!!!
A well seasoned hunter...and of course anyone between 8 and 14 ... will
come upon a " Find by Chance "...but that's rather a special case ..and
over 12,000 in 365 squ mile helps a bit ! My "tame" 13 year old is very
useful in huntin out the plugged, and high and low placed boxes that
"sensible sedate boxers" wouldn't discover by chance
In the US the ? stamps you spoke of strike me as very unlikely to be
found..(that's my 2c worth )
Happy to be readin L-USA
Graham Howard
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[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: Randy Hall (randy@mapsurfer.com) |
Date: 1999-04-07 15:50:06 UTC-04:00
The Moorland Wizard wrote:
> In the US the ? stamps you spoke of strike me as very unlikely to be
> found..(that's my 2c worth )
I can speak for the ones I have done. If the clue is decyphered correctly,
the starting point can be determined, so they are only "?" boxes in the
sense that if you are using a map interface, they have to be put somewhere.
As the Wizard said, the clues are everything. Don't be afraid of the "?";
it is an artifact of the interface Dan has chosen. No interface can
accomodate all styles of clues. Believe me, other hunters of stuff
have much less to work with, and the good ones do ok :-)
Randy "the mapsurfer"
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> In the US the ? stamps you spoke of strike me as very unlikely to be
> found..(that's my 2c worth )
I can speak for the ones I have done. If the clue is decyphered correctly,
the starting point can be determined, so they are only "?" boxes in the
sense that if you are using a map interface, they have to be put somewhere.
As the Wizard said, the clues are everything. Don't be afraid of the "?";
it is an artifact of the interface Dan has chosen. No interface can
accomodate all styles of clues. Believe me, other hunters of stuff
have much less to work with, and the good ones do ok :-)
Randy "the mapsurfer"
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[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: Daniel Servatius (elf@pclink.com) |
Date: 1999-04-07 16:56:57 UTC-05:00
Randy Hall wrote:
> The Moorland Wizard wrote:
> > In the US the ? stamps you spoke of strike me as very unlikely to
> > be found..(that's my 2c worth )
>
> If the clue is decyphered correctly, the starting point can be
> determined, so they are only "?" boxes in the sense that if you are
> using a map interface, they have to be put somewhere. As the Wizard
> said, the clues are everything. Don't be afraid of the "?"; it is
> an artifact of the interface Dan has chosen. No interface can
> accomodate all styles of clues.
This just makes me wonder... well, is there any reason that all of the
same mystique (and the same framework) for these types of clues can't
begin at a starting area? I mean the starting area is not the
letterbox, its just an area in which to begin. Academic? Is
there a reason why the clues can't be just as challenging starting at a
known reference area, if even a region or county? Many of the maps do
not reveal letterbox locations, they are just guides to show potential
letterbox searchers where on the earth (the area is) to start in.
If done this way, a "?" type of clue could be accomodated just as well
with the map interface as any other clue and it would not lose any of
its other qualities. To make sure you understand what I'm suggesting,
let's assume you have letterbox clue #'s 1, 2, 3, & 4 (in phrases/stages
as they typically are done). Let's assume clue 1 is the starting point,
ie. the clue that tells you where to begin. Now assume that you have
a starting area on the map instead of clue #1, not the exact starting
point, but the area within which you are to hunt. So now you would
have 1 less clue, (hence less challenge?). But what I'm sayijng is that
you just replace the missing clue #1 with another clue of equal
challenge,
ie. you add an equally challenging clue in place of the starting point
(by way of the original clue) in order to maintain the same degree of
challenge. Thus, you have the same difficulty, you still have 4
challenging clues as before, and it now works with maps to get to the
clues like all the other clues. No need to change the style, alter the
wording, etc... and we wouldn't have to stick the markers in the
margins then. Just a thought...
Actually, the maps can accomodate all styles of clues. The clues
themselves do not have to have maps in them. There are several like
that in Alaska, Tennessee and elsewhere. In fact Alaska had some of
the first clues on the site and they were sans maps. So maps are not
required. In fact, its a lot easier for me to do clues without maps
because the maps have to be looked up on the Tiger server, copied, layed
out in a document and then FTP'd to the web server. Just the same I
think they are a luxury, are user friendly, and contribute something to
the hobby in the U.S., given that we are so dispersed geographically.
So I really don't mind doing them, esp at the rate of growth we have
which so far has made it manageable.
So, I think we may have a way to
tie the "?" type clues into the large scale state maps without lessening
the challenge at all. All would be happy, those who like the mystique
of this type of clue and those who like the maps to access clues.
Its worth consideration.
So, that being said, well... I guess its just said. Its just my
thoughts for the day on a possible solution to using the map interface
along with "?" type clues and not be forced to stick them in the
margins. Comments welcome.
Dan
Ps. I have no issues continuing to treat them the way we've already
discussed. This is just food for thought for those of you who think
about such things - of possible ways to sort of bring all the clues
together - varied as they may be in style, but simply for the sake of
accessing them in a similar fashion with maps.
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> The Moorland Wizard wrote:
> > In the US the ? stamps you spoke of strike me as very unlikely to
> > be found..(that's my 2c worth )
>
> If the clue is decyphered correctly, the starting point can be
> determined, so they are only "?" boxes in the sense that if you are
> using a map interface, they have to be put somewhere. As the Wizard
> said, the clues are everything. Don't be afraid of the "?"; it is
> an artifact of the interface Dan has chosen. No interface can
> accomodate all styles of clues.
This just makes me wonder... well, is there any reason that all of the
same mystique (and the same framework) for these types of clues can't
begin at a starting area? I mean the starting area is not the
letterbox, its just an area in which to begin. Academic? Is
there a reason why the clues can't be just as challenging starting at a
known reference area, if even a region or county? Many of the maps do
not reveal letterbox locations, they are just guides to show potential
letterbox searchers where on the earth (the area is) to start in.
If done this way, a "?" type of clue could be accomodated just as well
with the map interface as any other clue and it would not lose any of
its other qualities. To make sure you understand what I'm suggesting,
let's assume you have letterbox clue #'s 1, 2, 3, & 4 (in phrases/stages
as they typically are done). Let's assume clue 1 is the starting point,
ie. the clue that tells you where to begin. Now assume that you have
a starting area on the map instead of clue #1, not the exact starting
point, but the area within which you are to hunt. So now you would
have 1 less clue, (hence less challenge?). But what I'm sayijng is that
you just replace the missing clue #1 with another clue of equal
challenge,
ie. you add an equally challenging clue in place of the starting point
(by way of the original clue) in order to maintain the same degree of
challenge. Thus, you have the same difficulty, you still have 4
challenging clues as before, and it now works with maps to get to the
clues like all the other clues. No need to change the style, alter the
wording, etc... and we wouldn't have to stick the markers in the
margins then. Just a thought...
Actually, the maps can accomodate all styles of clues. The clues
themselves do not have to have maps in them. There are several like
that in Alaska, Tennessee and elsewhere. In fact Alaska had some of
the first clues on the site and they were sans maps. So maps are not
required. In fact, its a lot easier for me to do clues without maps
because the maps have to be looked up on the Tiger server, copied, layed
out in a document and then FTP'd to the web server. Just the same I
think they are a luxury, are user friendly, and contribute something to
the hobby in the U.S., given that we are so dispersed geographically.
So I really don't mind doing them, esp at the rate of growth we have
which so far has made it manageable.
So, I think we may have a way to
tie the "?" type clues into the large scale state maps without lessening
the challenge at all. All would be happy, those who like the mystique
of this type of clue and those who like the maps to access clues.
Its worth consideration.
So, that being said, well... I guess its just said. Its just my
thoughts for the day on a possible solution to using the map interface
along with "?" type clues and not be forced to stick them in the
margins. Comments welcome.
Dan
Ps. I have no issues continuing to treat them the way we've already
discussed. This is just food for thought for those of you who think
about such things - of possible ways to sort of bring all the clues
together - varied as they may be in style, but simply for the sake of
accessing them in a similar fashion with maps.
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[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: (Letterboxr@aol.com) |
Date: 1999-04-08 01:48:33 UTC-04:00
elf@pclink.com writes:
> This just makes me wonder... well, is there any reason that all of the
> same mystique (and the same framework) for these types of clues can't
> begin at a starting area? I mean the starting area is not the
> letterbox, its just an area in which to begin. Academic? Is
> there a reason why the clues can't be just as challenging starting at a
> known reference area, if even a region or county?
Randy's idea of making the exact starting point part of the riddle seems
perfectly valid to me. He is at least willing to tell us what state the box
is in. In this sense, these clues do fit into the map interface, to some
degree.
I do not support trying to tailor the clue sets to fit the mapping interface.
Just put question marks on the maps, or make a listing of letterboxes in
each state with mysterious starting points. Whatever works best for
everyone. But we can't UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES start recommending to people
that their clues need to be of a certain style in order to be acceptable.
Clues are like poetry (some of them ARE poetry). You may, for instance, like
poems that rhyme... and maybe most of the poems you've been exposed to do, in
fact, rhyme. These facts do not negate the beauty of a well-written
non-rhyming poem. In fact, you will discover many people who prefer this
type of poetry.
Actually, I find the Mapsurfer Mystery boxes intriguing. (but then, I also
like poems that don't rhyme, so what do I know.) I can see the prospect for
putting riddles into your clues that require some research into the geography
and cartography of the state before you can start. This seems like a
potential educational opportunity to me.
What one has to do to find a letterbox is a creative decision of the maker of
the box. To find the box, you may have to recreate the scenes in a short
story, or follow a series of compass bearings. You may have to read a book,
study a map, solve a mathematical problem, brush up on your American
history, or listen to Kiss records backwards. Deciding how hard or easy to
make the clues is part of the artform.
Another part of the artform is looking up the clues, reading them for
yourself, and then deciding if you're up for the challenge. If Randy's clues
seem to hard, or if you don't want to do the research required to solve them,
then you should pick another letterbox to hunt for. That's why I,
personally, have been trying to put out a mixture of boxes in my area. Some
are easy for kids to find. Others require you to take a moderately difficult
uphill hike, follow compass bearings, and figure out a riddle before you find
the box. Such variety helps make the hobby interesting for everyone.
People are going to continue to come up with unique clue sets to lead people
to their letterboxes. The challenge is not to get everybody to conform to
one method of clue writing, but to continually evolve our website to meet the
requirements of its very creative contributors.
Mitch (Der Mad Stamper)
Portland, OR
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> This just makes me wonder... well, is there any reason that all of the
> same mystique (and the same framework) for these types of clues can't
> begin at a starting area? I mean the starting area is not the
> letterbox, its just an area in which to begin. Academic? Is
> there a reason why the clues can't be just as challenging starting at a
> known reference area, if even a region or county?
Randy's idea of making the exact starting point part of the riddle seems
perfectly valid to me. He is at least willing to tell us what state the box
is in. In this sense, these clues do fit into the map interface, to some
degree.
I do not support trying to tailor the clue sets to fit the mapping interface.
Just put question marks on the maps, or make a listing of letterboxes in
each state with mysterious starting points. Whatever works best for
everyone. But we can't UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES start recommending to people
that their clues need to be of a certain style in order to be acceptable.
Clues are like poetry (some of them ARE poetry). You may, for instance, like
poems that rhyme... and maybe most of the poems you've been exposed to do, in
fact, rhyme. These facts do not negate the beauty of a well-written
non-rhyming poem. In fact, you will discover many people who prefer this
type of poetry.
Actually, I find the Mapsurfer Mystery boxes intriguing. (but then, I also
like poems that don't rhyme, so what do I know.) I can see the prospect for
putting riddles into your clues that require some research into the geography
and cartography of the state before you can start. This seems like a
potential educational opportunity to me.
What one has to do to find a letterbox is a creative decision of the maker of
the box. To find the box, you may have to recreate the scenes in a short
story, or follow a series of compass bearings. You may have to read a book,
study a map, solve a mathematical problem, brush up on your American
history, or listen to Kiss records backwards. Deciding how hard or easy to
make the clues is part of the artform.
Another part of the artform is looking up the clues, reading them for
yourself, and then deciding if you're up for the challenge. If Randy's clues
seem to hard, or if you don't want to do the research required to solve them,
then you should pick another letterbox to hunt for. That's why I,
personally, have been trying to put out a mixture of boxes in my area. Some
are easy for kids to find. Others require you to take a moderately difficult
uphill hike, follow compass bearings, and figure out a riddle before you find
the box. Such variety helps make the hobby interesting for everyone.
People are going to continue to come up with unique clue sets to lead people
to their letterboxes. The challenge is not to get everybody to conform to
one method of clue writing, but to continually evolve our website to meet the
requirements of its very creative contributors.
Mitch (Der Mad Stamper)
Portland, OR
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[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: Charles Marchant-White (charles@bcasol.co.uk) |
Date: 1999-04-08 12:50:56 UTC+01:00
Because letterboxing in this area, Hampshire UK, has to be exercised with a
certain degree of constraint and even secrecy and because of the difference
of the terrain between here and Dartmoor, it is highly unlikely that anyone
would find a box by chance.
A large proportion of the clues are cryptic without any seemingly obvious
starting point. The clue may contain an anagram of the start point, or refer
to a memorial or feature that would need to be researched etc.
What appears to come through is the need to give clear descriptions of
identifiable features en-route, especially if there is a long stretch
between them and perhaps more importantly where it ends should be clearly
identifiable. In our area most of the boxes are in the roots of trees and
the like and you don't want people digging holes searching vainly for the
box when clearly they have gone astray somewhere along the way and are in
the wrong place. As I think someone else has remarked one oak tree with
broken limb looks like any other in a completely different area that just
might happen to have a broken limb.
Its a bit like proof reading, at first instance you see what you want to see
or think/imagine is there and you sometimes tend to make the place fit the
clue rather than the other way around.
I accept that it is not just the clue writer who should act responsibly,
but the searcher as well, but both go through a learning curve, after all
that's part of what it is all about. I also accept that much of this, as any
other outdoor pursuit, is common sense, but a little forethought and
planning does not go amiss.
Furthermore where people put out a series of stamps or a walk, where clearly
it is intended to follow some sort of route in order to get from one box to
the other, they will sometimes ask a fellow letterboxer to do a dry run to
check and make sure that the clues are sound, albeit they may need some
working out to resolve, before they go out to the letterboxing world at
large.
Hope these observations will be of help.
Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: Randy Hall
To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
Date: 07 April 1999 21:01
Subject: [L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
>The Moorland Wizard wrote:
>
>> In the US the ? stamps you spoke of strike me as very unlikely to be
>> found..(that's my 2c worth )
>
>I can speak for the ones I have done. If the clue is decyphered correctly,
>the starting point can be determined, so they are only "?" boxes in the
>sense that if you are using a map interface, they have to be put somewhere.
>
>As the Wizard said, the clues are everything. Don't be afraid of the "?";
>it is an artifact of the interface Dan has chosen. No interface can
>accomodate all styles of clues. Believe me, other hunters of stuff
>have much less to work with, and the good ones do ok :-)
>
>Randy "the mapsurfer"
>
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certain degree of constraint and even secrecy and because of the difference
of the terrain between here and Dartmoor, it is highly unlikely that anyone
would find a box by chance.
A large proportion of the clues are cryptic without any seemingly obvious
starting point. The clue may contain an anagram of the start point, or refer
to a memorial or feature that would need to be researched etc.
What appears to come through is the need to give clear descriptions of
identifiable features en-route, especially if there is a long stretch
between them and perhaps more importantly where it ends should be clearly
identifiable. In our area most of the boxes are in the roots of trees and
the like and you don't want people digging holes searching vainly for the
box when clearly they have gone astray somewhere along the way and are in
the wrong place. As I think someone else has remarked one oak tree with
broken limb looks like any other in a completely different area that just
might happen to have a broken limb.
Its a bit like proof reading, at first instance you see what you want to see
or think/imagine is there and you sometimes tend to make the place fit the
clue rather than the other way around.
I accept that it is not just the clue writer who should act responsibly,
but the searcher as well, but both go through a learning curve, after all
that's part of what it is all about. I also accept that much of this, as any
other outdoor pursuit, is common sense, but a little forethought and
planning does not go amiss.
Furthermore where people put out a series of stamps or a walk, where clearly
it is intended to follow some sort of route in order to get from one box to
the other, they will sometimes ask a fellow letterboxer to do a dry run to
check and make sure that the clues are sound, albeit they may need some
working out to resolve, before they go out to the letterboxing world at
large.
Hope these observations will be of help.
Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: Randy Hall
To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
Date: 07 April 1999 21:01
Subject: [L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
>The Moorland Wizard wrote:
>
>> In the US the ? stamps you spoke of strike me as very unlikely to be
>> found..(that's my 2c worth )
>
>I can speak for the ones I have done. If the clue is decyphered correctly,
>the starting point can be determined, so they are only "?" boxes in the
>sense that if you are using a map interface, they have to be put somewhere.
>
>As the Wizard said, the clues are everything. Don't be afraid of the "?";
>it is an artifact of the interface Dan has chosen. No interface can
>accomodate all styles of clues. Believe me, other hunters of stuff
>have much less to work with, and the good ones do ok :-)
>
>Randy "the mapsurfer"
>
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[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: (jdewolf@mail.icrsurvey.com) |
Date: 1999-04-08 13:28:20 UTC
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/letterbox-usa/?start=1295
> elf@pclink.com writes:
>
> > This just makes me wonder... well, is there any reason that all of the
> > same mystique (and the same framework) for these types of clues can't
> > begin at a starting area? I mean the starting area is not the
> > letterbox, its just an area in which to begin. Academic? Is
> > there a reason why the clues can't be just as challenging starting at a
> > known reference area, if even a region or county?
>
> Mitch writes:
>
> Randy's idea of making the exact starting point part of the riddle seems
> perfectly valid to me. He is at least willing to tell us what state the box
> is in. In this sense, these clues do fit into the map interface, to some
> degree.
>
I have to agree with Mitch and Randy here. I have been working, and having fun with the OH & MD letterboxes without even stepping outside. To me, and andy I think, that's part of the fun. I've figured out enough about the MD box I think I can go hunt it now. I still have a lot of "homework" to fo on the OH box.
As to the mapping interface, I like the way it's currently handled. The ? in the center of the Ohio map without any words next to it is the best way to IMHO use the interface and respect Randy's challenges. Ditto for the Lee County Box and the MD box.
JDW
West Chester, PA
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[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: Daniel Servatius (elf@pclink.com) |
Date: 1999-04-08 20:09:18 UTC-05:00
jdewolf@mail.icrsurvey.com wrote:
> As to the mapping interface, I like the way it's currently handled.
> The ? in the center of the Ohio map without any words next to it is
> the best way to IMHO use the interface and respect Randy's
> challenges.
I think it will become a problem, though it is strictly a technical one,
when there are numerous boxes, because only so many symbols can go on
a map. With the dots you can always parse, zoom in to a region, etc.
The other problem is when people wrongly infer (as they no doubt will)
that by virtue of being on a map, it means its a location, when in fact
it isn't.
I'm wondering if you could address the fact that the map may be used
with no loss in challenge whatever. Doesn't this make it academic?
There does not have to be a change in style and there does not have to
be a loss in challenge. Its strictly a practical/technical issue of
dealing with the means/method to access. I ask you not to confuse
this with the discussion of rules about clues or clues style. It is
a technical issue. What can it look like down the road, how can it
work, etc., are the questions that need to be answered. The map
interface is very practical/desirable. How can we make it work
with these clues without loss of the things that are being sought
by using these types of clues? Did that make sense? Put another
way, I would ask, how can the clues work exactly like the writer
intends without loss of challenge and with no discernible effect
on style and have it appear in a specific enough region on a map
to simply accomodate the map? In other words, to put it on the
map in such a way that by no means are any of the other qualities
that are being sought reduced or undone. What's being sought,
difficulty, challenge, etc? What are the ways to preserve that
and put it on the map? How do you keep the main intent of the clue
writer alive and rich and pure and give a means to access it on the
map? I guess that's the basic question to be answered.
Dan Servatius (Dan'l)
St. Paul, MN
mailto:elf@pclink.com
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> As to the mapping interface, I like the way it's currently handled.
> The ? in the center of the Ohio map without any words next to it is
> the best way to IMHO use the interface and respect Randy's
> challenges.
I think it will become a problem, though it is strictly a technical one,
when there are numerous boxes, because only so many symbols can go on
a map. With the dots you can always parse, zoom in to a region, etc.
The other problem is when people wrongly infer (as they no doubt will)
that by virtue of being on a map, it means its a location, when in fact
it isn't.
I'm wondering if you could address the fact that the map may be used
with no loss in challenge whatever. Doesn't this make it academic?
There does not have to be a change in style and there does not have to
be a loss in challenge. Its strictly a practical/technical issue of
dealing with the means/method to access. I ask you not to confuse
this with the discussion of rules about clues or clues style. It is
a technical issue. What can it look like down the road, how can it
work, etc., are the questions that need to be answered. The map
interface is very practical/desirable. How can we make it work
with these clues without loss of the things that are being sought
by using these types of clues? Did that make sense? Put another
way, I would ask, how can the clues work exactly like the writer
intends without loss of challenge and with no discernible effect
on style and have it appear in a specific enough region on a map
to simply accomodate the map? In other words, to put it on the
map in such a way that by no means are any of the other qualities
that are being sought reduced or undone. What's being sought,
difficulty, challenge, etc? What are the ways to preserve that
and put it on the map? How do you keep the main intent of the clue
writer alive and rich and pure and give a means to access it on the
map? I guess that's the basic question to be answered.
Dan Servatius (Dan'l)
St. Paul, MN
mailto:elf@pclink.com
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[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: Randy Hall (randy@mapsurfer.com) |
Date: 1999-04-08 21:35:12 UTC-04:00
> Put another
> way, I would ask, how can the clues work exactly like the writer
> intends without loss of challenge and with no discernible effect
> on style and have it appear in a specific enough region on a map
> to simply accomodate the map?
There are some clues for which a map interface is not appropriate.
There are some clues which will not conform to any as yet discussed
guidelines, form, or style, and some that will very different than
any of us may have ever even conceived of. There will be new and
interesting delivery media for clues. Let us accept these realities
and move on to a different thread; I feel this one has run its
course quite a while ago :-)
The map interface has served us well for all the clues on the site,
including the ones vaguely specified by just a county, region, or
state, and it will most likely continue to do so for the vast majority
of future clues. However, the reality is that no interface can be
designed to handle all the potential cases of clues and their delivery,
and that some people will not allow the extant interface to influence how
they write clues. I would suggest simply handling those that do not
conform on a case-by-case basis when and if they come up, and when writing
clues, do not even consider the interface, because that may change tomorrow,
but the box may be out there for decades.
Randy
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> way, I would ask, how can the clues work exactly like the writer
> intends without loss of challenge and with no discernible effect
> on style and have it appear in a specific enough region on a map
> to simply accomodate the map?
There are some clues for which a map interface is not appropriate.
There are some clues which will not conform to any as yet discussed
guidelines, form, or style, and some that will very different than
any of us may have ever even conceived of. There will be new and
interesting delivery media for clues. Let us accept these realities
and move on to a different thread; I feel this one has run its
course quite a while ago :-)
The map interface has served us well for all the clues on the site,
including the ones vaguely specified by just a county, region, or
state, and it will most likely continue to do so for the vast majority
of future clues. However, the reality is that no interface can be
designed to handle all the potential cases of clues and their delivery,
and that some people will not allow the extant interface to influence how
they write clues. I would suggest simply handling those that do not
conform on a case-by-case basis when and if they come up, and when writing
clues, do not even consider the interface, because that may change tomorrow,
but the box may be out there for decades.
Randy
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[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: Daniel Servatius (elf@pclink.com) |
Date: 1999-04-09 02:01:02 UTC-05:00
Randy Hall wrote:
> There are some clues for which a map interface is not appropriate.
> There are some clues which will not conform to any as yet discussed
> guidelines, form, or style, and some that will very different than
> any of us may have ever even conceived of.
The interface we are using can accomodate any style of clue. Just look
around at the different styles and formats.
> However, the reality is that no interface can be
> designed to handle all the potential cases of clues and their delivery,
> and that some people will not allow the extant interface to influence
> how they write clues.
As already mentioned there's no case of a clue that cannot be handled by
the system we are using. At least I have not encountered one yet that
could not be handled by it.
> ...when writing
> clues, do not even consider the interface, because that may change
> tomorrow, but the box may be out there for decades.
Please do consider that we use maps. It is a primary element of the web
site. It was a lot of work to create and it requires a lot of work to
maintain. I'm not complaining. I enjoy doing it. I really do. I just
ask you to not go out of your way to create clues that cannot at least
be described by a region or county (or something that works in the Tiger
Maps Gazateer) as this is the system I have to use. It
would be a tremendous amount of work to try to change it and transpose
the clues into a different system. There are a lot of technical
problems
inherent in such a change. The maps really do not take anything away
from style and they do not take anything away from originality. In
fact,
I can do a lot with colors, themes, texts, map styles, etc. and those
are
things you cannot do with a catalog or database. I'll work hard
for you to serve your needs. All I ask in return is that you make some
letterboxes and post them so the clues may be readily accessed.
I'll try to put them up fast if I can (meaning within a couple of days).
Thanks for your cooperation.
Dan Servatius (Dan'l)
St. Paul, MN
mailto:elf@pclink.com
Ps. Are we having fun yet?
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> There are some clues for which a map interface is not appropriate.
> There are some clues which will not conform to any as yet discussed
> guidelines, form, or style, and some that will very different than
> any of us may have ever even conceived of.
The interface we are using can accomodate any style of clue. Just look
around at the different styles and formats.
> However, the reality is that no interface can be
> designed to handle all the potential cases of clues and their delivery,
> and that some people will not allow the extant interface to influence
> how they write clues.
As already mentioned there's no case of a clue that cannot be handled by
the system we are using. At least I have not encountered one yet that
could not be handled by it.
> ...when writing
> clues, do not even consider the interface, because that may change
> tomorrow, but the box may be out there for decades.
Please do consider that we use maps. It is a primary element of the web
site. It was a lot of work to create and it requires a lot of work to
maintain. I'm not complaining. I enjoy doing it. I really do. I just
ask you to not go out of your way to create clues that cannot at least
be described by a region or county (or something that works in the Tiger
Maps Gazateer) as this is the system I have to use. It
would be a tremendous amount of work to try to change it and transpose
the clues into a different system. There are a lot of technical
problems
inherent in such a change. The maps really do not take anything away
from style and they do not take anything away from originality. In
fact,
I can do a lot with colors, themes, texts, map styles, etc. and those
are
things you cannot do with a catalog or database. I'll work hard
for you to serve your needs. All I ask in return is that you make some
letterboxes and post them so the clues may be readily accessed.
I'll try to put them up fast if I can (meaning within a couple of days).
Thanks for your cooperation.
Dan Servatius (Dan'l)
St. Paul, MN
mailto:elf@pclink.com
Ps. Are we having fun yet?
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[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: (jdewolf@mail.icrsurvey.com) |
Date: 1999-04-09 18:11:10 UTC
Dan'l,
How about a "floating" or "animated" "?"? Something that moves around on the map, or maybe around the map? Would that be technically feasible? I think it would reduce the likelihood of someone linking the clue to a specific point on the map.
Just thinkin' out loud.
JDW
West Chester, PA
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How about a "floating" or "animated" "?"? Something that moves around on the map, or maybe around the map? Would that be technically feasible? I think it would reduce the likelihood of someone linking the clue to a specific point on the map.
Just thinkin' out loud.
JDW
West Chester, PA
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[L-USA] Re: Non-specific letterboxes
From: (Letterboxr@aol.com) |
Date: 1999-04-09 18:36:24 UTC-04:00
elf@pclink.com writes:
> how can the clues work exactly like the writer
> intends without loss of challenge and with no discernible effect
> on style and have it appear in a specific enough region on a map
> to simply accomodate the map?
I don't think we need to get any more specific than what State it's in. This
allows the clue links to be placed on the page for that state. Where they
show up is academic. There can be a question mark in the center of the map,
a note in the margins, a list at the bottom of the page, or a link to a
seperate page listing only these kinds of clues. All that matters is that
the clues are made available, and the creator of the letterbox is completely
free to write any sort of clues they can imagine.
When we say 'there are no rules' we all know that it's not entirely true. I
prefer to think of them as guidelines and courtesies, but the bottom line is
that there are rules we must follow. We must acknowledge our responsibility
to the environment, public welfare, wildlife, and property rights. We also
must discourage any activity that might harm the general reputation of our
hobby. I would also like to think that we will always maintain a certain
level of accountability to the original customs, traditions and spirit of the
Moors.
These sorts of rules are the ONLY acceptable rules, however, in my opinion.
In Dartmoor, there is complete freedom regarding how the clues are written,
including the way in which you specify the starting point. To take this
freedom away from the letterboxers in the USA in an attempt to automate the
website would be a diservice to ourselves.
For instance, maybe one of the clues I have my heart set on using is to tell
people that the search begins on the front steps the county courthouse in the
largest city in Kansas. (I'm just ornery enough to hope that you don't
realize that most of Kansas City is in Missouri, making Wichita the largest
city in the state.) If you require me to indicate, however, what part of the
state my letterbox is in, you've spoiled my riddle. Sure, I can probably
scratch my head and come up with some equally challenging clue to replace it,
but perhaps I don't want to... and perhaps I shouldn't have to. Maybe I was
hoping to do a whole series of these types of boxes to encourage people to
read up on the geography and history of Kansas. Surely no one would prefer
that I restrict my trivia questions to the geography and history of Butler
County, just so I can represent my clues with a dot on the map.
Right now, it seems we are able to handle these types of clues effectively.
If we are working towards a system that can't handle these clues, then I
think we need to re-evaluate our plans. The purpose of automation is to make
things better and simpler. If our system ends up taking more effort to make
it look like we want than would be required to simply modify the maps with a
Paint program, then we're peddling backwards. If we are truly clever enough
to come up with a system that automatically puts dots on the map to
correspond to clues that people send in, I think we can also come up with a
way to make it place links to unknown-origin clues in the margin, or some
other appropriate place. If not, oh well... I'd be willing to bet that I can
paint a dot on a map quicker than you can regenerate a Tiger Server map,
anyhow.
Sorry if this is too technical for this list... I should probably have
addressed this to the technical specialty group, but the discussion of
letterboxing rules, and of the freedom to make any kind of clues you want,
concerns us all.
Der Mad Stamper
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> how can the clues work exactly like the writer
> intends without loss of challenge and with no discernible effect
> on style and have it appear in a specific enough region on a map
> to simply accomodate the map?
I don't think we need to get any more specific than what State it's in. This
allows the clue links to be placed on the page for that state. Where they
show up is academic. There can be a question mark in the center of the map,
a note in the margins, a list at the bottom of the page, or a link to a
seperate page listing only these kinds of clues. All that matters is that
the clues are made available, and the creator of the letterbox is completely
free to write any sort of clues they can imagine.
When we say 'there are no rules' we all know that it's not entirely true. I
prefer to think of them as guidelines and courtesies, but the bottom line is
that there are rules we must follow. We must acknowledge our responsibility
to the environment, public welfare, wildlife, and property rights. We also
must discourage any activity that might harm the general reputation of our
hobby. I would also like to think that we will always maintain a certain
level of accountability to the original customs, traditions and spirit of the
Moors.
These sorts of rules are the ONLY acceptable rules, however, in my opinion.
In Dartmoor, there is complete freedom regarding how the clues are written,
including the way in which you specify the starting point. To take this
freedom away from the letterboxers in the USA in an attempt to automate the
website would be a diservice to ourselves.
For instance, maybe one of the clues I have my heart set on using is to tell
people that the search begins on the front steps the county courthouse in the
largest city in Kansas. (I'm just ornery enough to hope that you don't
realize that most of Kansas City is in Missouri, making Wichita the largest
city in the state.) If you require me to indicate, however, what part of the
state my letterbox is in, you've spoiled my riddle. Sure, I can probably
scratch my head and come up with some equally challenging clue to replace it,
but perhaps I don't want to... and perhaps I shouldn't have to. Maybe I was
hoping to do a whole series of these types of boxes to encourage people to
read up on the geography and history of Kansas. Surely no one would prefer
that I restrict my trivia questions to the geography and history of Butler
County, just so I can represent my clues with a dot on the map.
Right now, it seems we are able to handle these types of clues effectively.
If we are working towards a system that can't handle these clues, then I
think we need to re-evaluate our plans. The purpose of automation is to make
things better and simpler. If our system ends up taking more effort to make
it look like we want than would be required to simply modify the maps with a
Paint program, then we're peddling backwards. If we are truly clever enough
to come up with a system that automatically puts dots on the map to
correspond to clues that people send in, I think we can also come up with a
way to make it place links to unknown-origin clues in the margin, or some
other appropriate place. If not, oh well... I'd be willing to bet that I can
paint a dot on a map quicker than you can regenerate a Tiger Server map,
anyhow.
Sorry if this is too technical for this list... I should probably have
addressed this to the technical specialty group, but the discussion of
letterboxing rules, and of the freedom to make any kind of clues you want,
concerns us all.
Der Mad Stamper
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